David Hayden [MVP C#]

Sponsors

The Lounge

Syndication

Recent Posts

Tags

View more

News

  • CodeBetter.Com Home

Other Links

Teas

Patterns & Practices

Florida .NET Developer

Book Reviews

Tampa ASP.NET MVC Developer Group

Archives

Advertisement

David Hayden [MVP C#] » LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
Images in this post missing? We recently lost them in a site migration. We're working to restore these as you read this. Should you need an image in an emergency, please contact us at imagehelp@codebetter.com
LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!

Based on the recent announcement on the ADO.NET Team Blog:

"We’re making significant investments in the Entity Framework such that as of .NET 4.0 the Entity Framework will be our recommended data access solution for LINQ to relational scenarios.  We are listening to customers regarding LINQ to SQL and will continue to evolve the product based on feedback we receive from the community as well."

I highly recommend that Microsoft re-instate the original development team for LINQ To SQL and have them put together a release for .NET 4.0 that is placed on CodePlex as open source. There is no way the ADO.NET Team can do what is right for LINQ To SQL given their obvious bias to the Entity Framework.

I recommend the new team use a similar approach to that of the ASP.NET MVC Team where we get a highly testable, opinionated, lightweight O/R Mapper that has frequent CTP releases with attention to continuous community feedback.

Personally, I suspect improving LINQ To SQL is far easier and less resource intensive than what needs to be done to improve the ADO.NET Entity Framework. Let a new team release a LINQ To SQL version 2.0 and then leave it up to the community to continue the effort going forward if nobody at Microsoft wants to keep the project going.

Ideally, I would like to see LINQ to SQL eventually fall under the same management as the MVC Framework as I think MVC is to ASP.NET Webforms as LINQ To SQL is to the ADO.NET Entity Framework.

Just a thought :)

 

David Hayden

Posted Thu, Oct 30 2008 2:54 PM by David Hayden

[Advertisement]

Comments

Colin Jack wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 3:09 PM

Couldn't agree more.

DotNetKicks.com wrote LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 3:11 PM

You've been kicked (a good thing) - Trackback from DotNetKicks.com

Ben Scheirman wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 3:23 PM

That is seriously lame.

LINQ to SQL fills a GAP where EF is clearly not ready for prime-time.  EF v1 looks like an overly complex L2S.  EF v2 addresses some of my concerns, but if I want an ORM, I'll choose NHibernate.

I see LINQ to SQL be a really nice framework for those apps that don't warrant the complexity of a full blown ORM.  code gen, SubSonic, Castle ActiveRecord, pick your poison.

I heartily 2nd your suggestion.

Rob Conery wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 3:25 PM

I'll volunteer to take this on! Good writeup as always David ;)

Rob wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 3:59 PM

Well said.

Ben Hart wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 4:16 PM

Saw that roadmap post earlier today, and confess I cringed a little. LinqToSql has found a nice sweet-spot, and deservedly so.

I hope someone's listening. Maybe we need another petition :D

DaRage wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 4:19 PM

I hate to see Linq2Sql die.. i'm using it for a lot of projects already?

David do something maaan!!

Martin Nyborg wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 5:38 PM

Just my words, get LINQ2SQL out in the open.

Chad Moran wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 5:40 PM

I have to agree, I think ADO.NET Entity Framework information has always been muddy at best.  I even tried to use it a few times and it just didn't feel natrual.

To be honest though this is the Microsoft way... look at the branding and product issues with MSN/Live.

I would agree I'd like to see LINQ to SQL be brought under the same type of development as MVC.

Rafi wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 6:21 PM

Ok this is totally freaken unbelievable.  I have been using Linq to SQL everywhere with hope that it would be evolved. Honestly, if they don't improve Linq to SQL  and dump it for overly complex Entity Framework, then I am definitely gona dump MS platform.

So I agree with you if MS listenning to the community then they would do exactly as you suggested. That is they do not let the entity framework team touch it.

Peter Kellner wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Thu, Oct 30 2008 8:05 PM

First, I love LINQ to SQL.  I've been scared of LINQ to Entity because of having to learn another language and having my db changes not reflected in my model.  After talking to one of the MS (non biased of course) smart guys, I'm rethinking my position.  Maybe with LINQ to Entities, I can do the same thing as LINQ to SQL but have an upgrade path when i want to take advantage of more thiings.

BTW, thanks for the post, it's definitely on my mind as I'm sure others.

Kamran Shahid wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 2:38 AM

100% agreed specially for the suggestion about the ASP.net MVC like approach

Kang The Koder » LINQ To SQL – Needs our support. wrote Kang The Koder » LINQ To SQL – Needs our support.
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 3:36 AM

Pingback from  Kang The Koder » LINQ To SQL – Needs our support.

Kang The Koder » LINQ To SQL – Needs our support. wrote Kang The Koder » LINQ To SQL – Needs our support.
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 3:41 AM

Pingback from  Kang The Koder » LINQ To SQL – Needs our support.

Dragosh wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 3:41 AM

I totally agree with you.

LINQ to SQL is a great tool. Is light, small and FAST.

EF is BIG, No leazy loading and IS NOT FAST for machines that are not hardware up to date.

The ASP.NET MVC has the best development plan.

Use the same for LINQ to SQL, or, maybe, more will move to another ORM.

Jens wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 3:44 AM

If there's a petittion, let me know where to sign it, we've invested too much in this simple but great solution to give up now.

Reflective Perspective - Chris Alcock » The Morning Brew #213 wrote Reflective Perspective - Chris Alcock » The Morning Brew #213
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 4:32 AM

Pingback from  Reflective Perspective - Chris Alcock  » The Morning Brew #213

Martin Kovářík wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 4:43 AM

I agree, definitely!

Ian Cooper wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 5:11 AM

@David I completely agree.  LINQ To SQL is far closer to being what I would expect from an ORM than EF is. Putting it under the Data Services team was smothering it at birth. EF also gives me no confidence in the Data Services team understanding of what we need from an ORM tool.

I guess the EF team is embarrassed by how much better L2S was and want to see it die so that it does not have to remind them of where they went wrong every morning.

@Rob if you wanted to pick this up then I would cheer you on. Go Rob, go.

Christian Sakshaug » LINQ to SQL dead? wrote Christian Sakshaug » LINQ to SQL dead?
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 5:45 AM

Pingback from  Christian Sakshaug » LINQ to SQL dead?

Dan Shechter wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 8:14 AM

Linq 2 Sql HAS a GOOD old home. It's the mono implementation that is completely OPEN SOURCE and supports most DBs already as is:

code.google.com/.../dblinq2007

MS, Open Source or Roll Your Own - An Ordinary Developer’s Rants wrote MS, Open Source or Roll Your Own - An Ordinary Developer’s Rants
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 9:07 AM

Pingback from  MS, Open Source or Roll Your Own - An Ordinary Developer’s Rants

Joel Duvall wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 10:35 AM

You know I have to say that this is nothing new that EF was going to be the preferred way. But they are NOT dropping Linq to SQL or kicking it to the curb as you say.

Read the quote! "We are listening to customers regarding LINQ to SQL and will continue to evolve the product based on feedback we receive from the community as well."

Gil Fink on .Net wrote The End of LINQ To SQL?
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 11:20 AM

The End of LINQ To SQL? Today I read a few blog posts that were published regarding  the announcement

Matt Brooks wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 11:38 AM

Please may I suggest you post your opinions in this thread: forums.microsoft.com/.../ShowPost.aspx. It might help the issue become more visible and help support for LINQ to SQL gather momentum.

mike kidder wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 11:43 AM

@Rob - great to hear you chime in.  Would be great to see your group to take this on....

Khalid Abuhakmeh wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 12:31 PM

Well this sucks, I guess its time to drink the NHibernate Kool-Aid. Sip.... Hey it's not that ba....(fall over dead). Just kidding, but seriously NHibernate seems like the clear choice for the community OR/M. Maybe the tools that make Linq to SQL so appealing could be built around NHibernate.

David Hayden [MVP C#] wrote LINQ To SQL is Dead - Read Between the Lines
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 12:33 PM

This is my last post on this subject, I promise, and unfortunately it has to be a little more blunt as

Community Blogs wrote LINQ To SQL is Dead - Read Between the Lines
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 12:41 PM

This is my last post on this subject, I promise, and unfortunately it has to be a little more blunt as

Chris wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 1:48 PM

Probably too obvious for MS to do it Dave, but glad you said it anyway.

Colin Jack wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 2:34 PM

@ Joel

Don't be naive, they were hardly going to say

"Yeah we won the power struggle, sorry if you invested time in Linq To Sql but its OK because there are some great open source alternatives...."

KG2V wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Fri, Oct 31 2008 6:13 PM

I'm glad I didn't invest significant time learning it  - RIP -sigh

TheCoder wrote LINQ to SQL Dead?
on Sat, Nov 1 2008 6:04 AM

LINQ to SQL Dead?

Guy kolbis wrote You are the weakest Linq, goodbye!
on Sat, Nov 1 2008 1:16 PM

I am going on a vacation and the world collapses ??? I just got the news... Linq is about to die... Wow

Michael wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Mon, Nov 3 2008 1:22 AM

What's next? Dump C#? C'mon. Refactoring is great but this is ridiculous!

Feedback You Say? wrote re: LINQ To SQL Gets Kicked to the Curb... Needs A Good Home!
on Mon, Nov 3 2008 1:25 AM

Where can we give feedback? If Microsoft is listening then why not mention the URL instead of just saying Microsoft is listening?