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Eric Wise

Business & .NET

NDoc may be dead

From the lead dev of NDoc:

I have decided to discontinue work on NDoc 2.0 and no longer participate in any open-source development work.

The development and release of NDoc 1.3 was a huge amount of work, and by all accounts widely appreciated. Unfortunately, despite the almost ubiquitous use of NDoc, there has been no support for the project from the .Net developer community either financially or by development contributions. Since 1.3 was released, there have been the grand total of eleven donations to the project. In fact, were it not for Oleg Tkachenko’s kind donation of a MS MVP MSDN subscription, I would not even have a copy of VS2005 to work with!

To put this into perspective, if only roughly 1-in-10 of the those who downloaded NDoc had donated the minimum allowable amount of $5 then I could have worked on NDoc 2.0 full-time and it could have been released months ago! Now, I am not suggesting that this should have occurred, or that anyone owes me anything for the work I have done, rather I am trying to demonstrate that if the community values open-source projects then it should do *something* to support them. MS has for years acknowledged community contributions via the MVP program but there is absolutely no support for community projects.

Once ‘Sandcastle’ is released, it is my belief that it will become the de-facto standard and that NDoc will slowly become a stagnant side-water. This will happen regardless of technical considerations, even if Sandcastle were to be less feature-complete. It's just an inevitable result of MS's 'not-invented-here' mentality, one only has to look at Nant and NUnit to see the effects of MS 'competition'.

This is not, however, my only reason for stopping development work - I have a big enough ego to think I could still produce a better product than them :-)

As some of you are aware, there are some in the community who believe that a .Net 2.0 compatible release was theirs by-right and that I should be moving faster – despite the fact that I am but one man working in his spare time...

This came to head in the last week; I have been subjected to an automated mail-bomb attack on both my public mail addresses and the ndoc2 mailing list address. These mails have been extremely offensive and resulted in my ISP temporarily suspending my account because of the traffic volume. This incident has been reported to the local authorities, although I am highly doubtful they will be able to do anything about it.

This has was the ‘last-straw’ and has convinced me that I should withdraw from the community; I’m not prepared to have myself and my family threatened by some lunatic!

Kevin

P.S. If anyone wants to take over as admin on the SourceForge NDoc project - contact me. If not, I'll be removing myself in 14 days.

I find this interesting.  I too bought into the open source / feel good community aspect with my Easy Assets application.  Now, I didn't get near as many downloads as NDoc I'm sure, but I did have hundreds, and let me tell you I had the same result.  No community resubmissions of code, no donations, jack-diddly-squat.

Like Kevin, I don't see myself ever working on FOSS ever again, unless I win the mega millions or something... With my family, full time job, etc., I just don't have the time for activities that generate no profit.



Comments

Sahil Malik said:

Well, I think if you don't marry your techie skills to your business skills, you are doomed for failure. You can succeed with no techie skills, but you cannot succeed without business skills.

Look at community server. They offer the source code - but they did it right. I don't think telligent is hurting, but I think they did it correctly.
# August 2, 2006 6:35 PM

Eric Wise said:

Right, but they make their bread and butter off consulting, and community server started as a sort of advertisement for their skills.  I believe now they have pricing tiers for it that they didn't have before.  In addition, unlike Kevin and NDoc, they have company funding behind the project, Kevin and I aren't being compensated for this work.

Easy Assets did accomplish that for me however.  It's a product I made, potential employers can grab it, look at my style and structure, and make a more informed decision about hiring me.
# August 2, 2006 6:42 PM

Matt said:

Open Source isn't the problem.  It's the Microsoft development community that's the problem.  Other development communities have vibrant open-source projects: look at all the open source software for Java and C, for example.  The difference is that Java and C developers are, on average, far better programmers developers who use Microsoft technologies.  MS encourages developers to be spoon fed and dumbed down.  Even if those developers did muck in on your open source project, would you want them to?
# August 3, 2006 2:27 AM

Mike said:

Matt:  Nice attitude.  What, besides the voices in your head, do you have to back up your statement that "Java and C developers are, on average far better programmers..."?

# August 3, 2006 7:02 AM

Sahil Malik said:

IMO, by definition if you aren't doing .NET, you are a worse programmer. :-D

(Voices in *my* head :-P)
# August 3, 2006 7:32 AM

Vikas Kerni said:

Eric : one only has to look at Nant and NUnit to see the effects of MS 'competition'
What do you mean by that? Are the downloads declining?

IMO, It is more to do with human nature. We like to get telephone ,internet and cable services from one vendor.
# August 3, 2006 8:06 AM

Jason Gerard said:

I agree with Matt in that the Microsoft Community is the problem. Those that have been traditional "Microsoft" developers have always had everything provided to them by Microsoft with no option to give back. They're just not used to contributing.

Other communities, like Java, have had to be the technology drivers since processes like the JCP tend to take a long time to innovate. At the same time, the JCP usually incorporates the technologies from the open source community that are good. Take Doug Lea's concurrent library. It was migrated virtually as is into the Java 1.4 system.

Microsoft, on the other hand, suffers from the Not Invented Here syndrome. They see a good idea (NUnit, NAnt) and instead of supporting it, they undermine it by rolling there own (Team Test, MSBuild). So this is really another deterrent to developing open source for Microsoft. If I have a new idea, it will probably be taken and redone by Micrsosoft anyway and that version will become the de facto standard. This is what is happening with NDoc. Even if he still wanted to work on it, as soon as sandcastle comes out, everyone will switch to it. Such is the way of the Microsoft developer community.
# August 3, 2006 9:23 AM

camera said:

I don't believe there are conversations at MS that start out "Look there are folks giving away useful tools for free, let's go after them and shut them down."

Having worked at IBM for the first thirteen years of my career I think I can provide the perspective of large companies and 'competing products.'  

The conversation goes like this -- Large multinational VP of Technology to MS: My company is spending millions on VisualStudio licenses each year and our applications must be error-free or else the (heart transplant database / financial institution database / insurance claim database) goes down and people (die / cannot access their money / sue us).  As VP of Technology at TrustUsWithYourLife Inc, I cannot rely on essentially one guy in the opensource community world for this testing tool,  because he may wake up one morning and decide he doesn't want to do this anymore.  Then what do I do?  You, Microsoft, need to provide these tools for me or I may just decide to standardize on some other technology that provides me with the testing environment and the tools I need and you can say good-bye to millions in revenue.  Furthermore, if you provide the tool, I'm tied even more to your platform and you generate additional revenues.  MS to VP: Uhhnmmmm....Okay.

As the saying goes: all customers are equal, but some customers are more equal than others.
# August 3, 2006 10:06 AM

Eric Wise said:

Camera hits it right on the head.  Most large companies, where a VP's job is on the line, are not all that comfortable with the solution that isn't backed by the big vendor.  Many of you do the same thing at the grocery store, do you buy the generic store brand or the campbell's soup?  If you bought the campbells well congrats, you just did the same thing on a much smaller scale.

If Microsoft with team system provides robust build and testing tools most people simply won't look at alternatives unless those tools fail to meet a need they have.  This is a reasonable conclusion.  I don't see this as a problem with the MS community though, I find it convenient that when I want to develop something I don't have to go out and download x ^ y distros and set them all up to work together.  Then on top of that manage upgrading x ^ y distros at different times, possibly breaking compatibility (ever do a php upgrade?  sheesh).

I think a lot of the java people are living in a fantasy world though.  .NET developers are "weaker", java community is "better".  If you look at adoption trends in the fortune 500 you'll see that's a bunch of bull.  I'm not going to get into a language flame war, because any sane reasonable person knows that those are based on some ignorant, useless shit.

The OSS/FOSS/Java communites are strong on choice and ultimate flexibility.  The .NET community is strong on something "that just works".  What you choose to work in depends on your needs.  If you choose java all the time because you're a fanboy, you're doing yourself and your customers a disservice.
# August 3, 2006 10:35 AM

Jason Gerard said:

I never said Microsoft wanted to shut anybody down. The problem that exist is that rather than building upon the work of others, Microsoft usually just starts over from scratch.

NUnit, NAnt, and others are under very permissive licenses (NUnit doesn't even require you to give away the source code if you redistribute).

In the example I used for Java, Doug Lea created a library to make concurrent programming in Java robust and easy. Sun took his code and integrated it directly into the Java runtime with a few tweaks. They got his input as he served on the JCP. The Generics implementation in Java was also an open source project that got integrated into the main system.

Microsoft, with few exceptions (IronPython), tends to not do this. I don't know what the reasons are (could be valid, could just be ego) but it definitely seems to stiffle open source work in the Microsoft Community. Why should I build it when I can just wait 6-12 months for Microsoft to do it? They'll integrate it with Visual Studio and make it the standard anyway.

So you have a culture of waiting on Microsoft. While you get all the nice support that Microsoft usually brings to the table, you are also limited to the innovation that they come up with.
# August 3, 2006 1:37 PM

Chad Myers said:

Does anyone use NDoc for serious deployments and shipping products?

We had a shipping API product and our comment-doc/lines-of-code ratio was way out of whack. All our interface files were filled with comments and hardly any code. It was pretty ridiculous. It became apparent that having documentation (especially localized documentation) in the CS files was just impractical.

At that point, NDoc became worthless to us. While Kevin (NDoc) makes a good point about the community, and I agree with him, you could also make the argument that NDoc, despite its download counter, doesn't have a lot of 'serious' value to 'serious' projects who need lots of documentation.

I'm curious about what ya'll think. We ended up using a product that allowed us to keep documentation in seperate files that were based off a .NET Reflection of our Assemblies. The product wasn't great, but it was as-good-or-better than NDoc for most purposes.

It seems to me that the world should be headed towards Wikis, or live-documentation that isn't so tied to the code files, but tied to the Assemblies (after-the-fact).

Documentation is a serious maintenance artifact (that rivals or surpasses the code itself -- in terms of importance) and having it spread out in XML in all your code files doesn't seem like a practical way of storing critical business knowledge and key deliverable artifacts.
# August 3, 2006 6:01 PM

Eric Wise said:

I'm moving towards the wiki route in my current job.
# August 3, 2006 9:50 PM

DonXml's All Things Techie said:

# August 5, 2006 5:04 PM

Dare Obasanjo aka Carnage4Life said:

# August 8, 2006 3:23 PM

cheers said:

The sooner people realize Open Source is evil the better. Why on earth give results of your hard work for free especially if there are no starving people waiting? There is no free lunch. Well, at least a good free lunch.
# August 9, 2006 2:23 AM

IPcentral Weblog said:

The realities of life in the open source world (non-corporate division): I have decided to discontinue work on NDoc 2.0 and no longer participate in any open-source development work. The development and release of NDoc 1.3 was a huge amount...
# August 14, 2006 8:39 AM

Dave's Tech Shop said:

Opinions on Funding Open Source Projects

# September 20, 2006 11:38 AM

gifts said:

What a terrible indictment to the open source community. Whoever the lunatic was the mail-bombed the guy and the rest, I hope he is proud of his clear lack of any intelligence, heart, passion or anything good. What exactly, mr lunatic, are you adding to the open source community? To any community, in fact? Nothing. Open Source is an awesome idea, but people like that are the reason that it just won't go completely mainstream.

Truth be told, guys could have donated a measly $5.00 as well... but be that as it may, we all know open source isn't exactly a gold mine. But it is definitely a community, and a shared passion between all.

# September 6, 2007 11:29 AM

pet portraits art said:

If I were in your case I would also move and leave behind anything stagnant.  It’s not worth your time and your expertise.  You deserve something better and more challenging than that one.

# January 8, 2008 1:41 AM

slk said:

I am with gifts on this one...and I hope the cops find the lunatic. Probably some unskillful script kiddie who couldn't program himself out of a paper bag. What a disgrace!

"Who is John Galt?"

# January 8, 2008 5:59 PM

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