Jeremy D. Miller -- The Shade Tree Developer

Sponsors

The Lounge

Syndication

News

Advertisement

Images in this post missing? We recently lost them in a site migration. We're working to restore these as you read this. Should you need an image in an emergency, please contact us at imagehelp@codebetter.com
Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post

 

I want to comment a bit on The Problem of Open Source in the Microsoft World from Ayende.  Please go read his post and add your voice somewhere.  I actually do believe that Microsoft listens to us, we just have to start asking for the right things. 

I strongly believe that a friendlier attitude from Microsoft towards OSS tools in .Net can only benefit us -- and Microsoft as well I would think.  Recently, one of the senior developers at my client asked my opinion in regards to .Net versus Java.  That's not an interesting conversation in terms of pure technology anymore (.Net/Java versus Ruby/Python/LAMP is far more interesting).  In terms of development community though, I think there is a vast gulf between Java and .Net, at least at the upper end.  I openly admire the vibrant OSS community in Java (I'm downright jealous of the community around Rails) and the wealth of innovation that they have sparked.  The .Net development community seems to either:

  1. Wait for Microsoft's new tools and use them without any critical evaluation.  Are you sure that Enterprise Library is the best choice?  Could it be better?  Are there existing alternatives that are better?  Could we write something much simpler than CAB and use that instead? 
  2. Or port something from Java and now Ruby

I think the lack of innovation from the .Net community is extremely disappointing.  We hurt ourselves By limiting .Net innovation to Redmond and Java leftovers.  I'd really just like to see more of an attitude of "we can do it ourselves" rather than having tunnel vision on Redmond.  And the old excuse that innovation is lacking because .Net is much newer than Java?  It's been 5-6 years now.  That excuse is tired. 

Microsoft developer tools are primarily geared around RAD development  (I've banned the "M" word from my blog, but you know that I'm thinking about "M's" here).  Doing Domain Driven development with Agile practices might not even be possible or efficient without the OSS tools that have historically provided the gaps between Microsoft's tooling.  Those tools have been, and continue to be, important.  Microsoft *still* does not have a fullblown Inversion of Control tool, a released O/R mapper, a Continuous Integration tool, or a mock object library.  All OSS tools that I depend on almost daily.

If nothing else, OSS tools, especially developer tools, can be driven by developer needs faster than Microsoft can possibly move -- and Microsoft can't possibly anticipate every need.

By the way, my money is where my mouth is.  I'm not as prolific as Ayende (nobody is), but my OSS resume is:

  • StructureMap - Dependency Injection tool (first release in June 2004)
  • StoryTeller - .Net tooling for FitNesse testing (shooting for the first alpha in January 2007)

and I will be contributing some enhancements to NUnitForms and FitnesseDotNet (shows its heritage as a Java port way too much).

I would definitely recommend being involved in an OSS project.  My OSS work has positively contributed to my career path.  I wouldn't say that it's brought me any particular fame, but it's been a great learning experience.  I started StructureMap as a way to learn .Net when I was stuck in a non-coding architect role.  Besides being useful in and of itself, it gave me a toolbench to try out TDD and design patterns that I've used on paying projects since.

 

Does anybody know where JetBrains stands in regard to a full .Net IDE ala IntelliJ?  I'd concur with Ayende and the commenters that I think our best hope is JetBrains.  I have this ridiculous vision of a bunch of developers with bad hair saying "help me JetBrains, you're my only hope."

I still dislike the GPL license by the way.  We're using a GPL licensed tool in our code base that has a specific provision to allow you to redistribute the binary as is in your own product just like NAnt.  Very early on I predicted that the company's inhouse lawyer would have a conniption over the license.  I'm apparently psychic because my prediction unfolded exactly the way I said it would.  I get the utopian ideal behind the GPL, but the benefits of being an OSS author are indirect.  The specific gains are reputation and often a chance to learn from working on projects that are quite different or more challenging than your day job.  The gains are primarily derived from somebody else using your OSS tool.  By slapping the GPL on it you're effectively dooming the fruits of your labor to the dust bin (or academia).

 

P.S. -- I partially blame lawyers for this because I know that part of MS's attitude is due to a fear of legal proceedings over intellectual property rights. 


Posted Sun, Dec 10 2006 1:43 PM by Jeremy D. Miller

[Advertisement]

Comments

Simone Busoli wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Sun, Dec 10 2006 5:15 PM

*quote*

I think the lack of innovation from the .Net community is extremely disappointing.  We hurt ourselves By limiting .Net innovation to Redmond and Java leftovers.  I'd really just like to see more of an attitude of "we can do it ourselves" rather than having tunnel vision on Redmond.

Microsoft *still* does not have...

*endquote*

Jeremy, I think that one of the reasons why there's not much .NET innovation coming from OSS developers is that people don't want to invest time and effort in developing something that will be first or then *borrowed* by Microsoft to build their own implementation of it. Look at NDoc, and I bet another thousand smaller projects which have been discontinued because of a similar tool - not eventually better - released by Microsoft.

I think that Microsoft should do the first step and start collaborating in OSS, to show that they are not only thieves of other's ideas.

Jeremy D. Miller wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Sun, Dec 10 2006 5:45 PM

Simone,

I hear you about the fear of MS just copying it later, but I think that makes it even more important to get the message through to MS.  I've stated it ad nauseum, but the ObjectSpaces fiasco still burns me.  That was almost pure FUD that set back the development of NHibernate and other tools considerably.  I genuinely wished they had simply worked with NUnit/NAnt/etc. instead of devoting resources to half-hearted copies.  I think Java is better off because Sun & IBM seem to be willing to work with OSS instead of trying to compete with it the way MS does.

I also think that MS wastes some of their time in constantly reinventing the wheel.  Look at ObjectBuilder in the CAB.  They could have used any of the existing DI/IoC tools and gotten more functionality.  Probably could have been done earlier with ObjectBuilder if they had researched the existing tools for that matter.

I think there was a bit more to the NDoc story than just MS copying NDoc.

Simone Busoli wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Sun, Dec 10 2006 6:27 PM

I agree with you, both about MS trying to reinvent the wheel each time and about the need of making our voice reach them. As far as I remember this topic has been discussed often in blogs, so I think that they should have got it by now.

I'm pretty sure that if their attitude towards OSS don't change we'll hardly ever see a .NET community as innovating as any other developement community out there.

I know about NDoc, that was just an example, maybe not the more appropriate.

David Hayden [MVP C#] wrote Microsoft OSS Community - Too Much Duplication of Effort?
on Sun, Dec 10 2006 6:36 PM

Just thinking out loud :) I was about to leave a comment for Jeremy telling him I would love to work

cruizer wrote The Microsoft developer mindset when it comes to open source
on Sun, Dec 10 2006 7:52 PM

Ayende Rahien and Jeremy Miller brought forth the arguments in their respective blog entries, and I couldn't

Michal wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Mon, Dec 11 2006 1:49 AM

Hi there,

just wanted to add that I talked with JetBrains guys at TechED Barcelona, and they told me that they are'nt planning to develop an IDE for .NET. There were such plans, but the project was cancelled. Sorry guys :(

Andrew Stopford's Weblog wrote OSS in .NET
on Mon, Dec 11 2006 4:37 AM

I was going to comment on Jeremys post on OSS in the Microsoft world but decided to write it up here.

Community Blogs wrote The reason why OSS isn't big in MS/.NET land? Money!
on Mon, Dec 11 2006 6:36 AM

A couple of people ( Ayende Rahien , Jeremy Miller and David Hayden ) started to wonder why Open Source

Sean Chambers wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Mon, Dec 11 2006 7:52 AM

Jeremy,

I couldn't agree with you and Ayende more.

Whenever I look at a new tool in the OSS community I don't have the same level of "fear" if you will, that I do when I use a MS tool. Specifically because I know if there is a problem with a MS tool it will be months, perhaps never before the bug is fixed. Whereas with a OSS tool, you just check in a bug and boom! someone takes it upon themself to address/fix the bug. I quickly got tired of hearing "That is an issue and we will *think* about fixing it" from MS. That definately gave me a sour taste in my mouth for ANY tools from MS and I definately think twice before using a new MS tool. I actually go out of my way to find an OSS equivalent before using the MS tool.

Great post!

David Kemp wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Mon, Dec 11 2006 7:58 AM
Alex James wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Mon, Dec 11 2006 4:36 PM

This stuff is so true...

Not sure that Microsoft will ever change thought. They love to own the platform.

Andrew Stopford's Weblog wrote A look ahead at 2007
on Sat, Dec 30 2006 1:05 PM

Its that time of year again and as is custom on my blog I'll look back at the predictions I made

Ayende @ Blog wrote OSS
on Sat, Jan 13 2007 2:12 PM

OSS

Ayende @ Blog wrote OSS
on Sat, Jan 13 2007 2:15 PM

OSS

Rosie wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Mon, Mar 5 2007 12:32 PM

I thank you for your comment.

flynetcn wrote .NET开源社区存在的问题
on Tue, Sep 11 2007 1:21 AM

以色列的一位热衷于.NET开源项目的开发人员,在他的Blog上写了一篇文章分析了.NET开源社区存在的问题。

Kevin Herbert wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Fri, Oct 26 2007 12:28 PM

We have developed a .net version of a Metadata Driven Star Schema ETL engine.  A most advanced engine.   I am considering taking our project open source.   What tools are out there to manage an open source project?   What is the ROI?   Any other comments?

不够谦虚 wrote .NET开源社区存在的问题
on Wed, Dec 5 2007 2:56 PM

.NET开源社区存在的问题

Andrew Stopford's Weblog wrote A look ahead at 2008
on Thu, Dec 27 2007 1:50 PM

It's that time of year again and a custom on my blog to look back at my predictions for this year, relect

google wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Sun, Jan 20 2008 9:53 PM
battery wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:21 PM

  www.batteryfast.com/.../146630-001.php battery for COMPAQ M300 N400 146630-001 291694-001 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../116314-001.php Battery fits COMPAQ Presario 1200 1600 1800 116314-001 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../pp2162s.php Battery For Compaq Presario 311227-001 PP2162S Laptop laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../232060-001.php battery for COMPAQ N150 PP2111X 232060-001 231962-001 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../d9200.php Notebook Laptop Battery for Dell D9200 D5318 G5260 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../m1210.php 6600mAh Battery fits DELL XPS M1210 NF343 HF674 NEW laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../312-0341.php 3cell Battery for Dell Latitude X1 T6840 312-0342 Y6457 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../xd187.php New Dell Inspiron B130 1300 b120 Battery 312-0416 56whr laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../m680.php Gateway M360 M460 M680 8-Cell Notebook Battery 6500949 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../hstnn-db17.php New Battery for HP M2000 Series DV1000 DV4000 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../f2019b.php Battery For HP F2019 F2019A F2019B 6000 VT6200 XT6200 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../hstnn-db02.php Battery For HP HSTNN-IB04 346970-001 HSTNN-DB02 DP399A laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../n3402.php New F1739A Battery For HP XE XE2 Pavilion N3000 N3490 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../zt1000.php New Battery For HP Pavilion ZT1000 F2299A F3172B F3172A laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../02k7018.php IBM THINKPAD 600 600A 600D 600E 600X 02K7018 BATTERY laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../btp-68b3.php Battery for Gateway Solo M500 M505 Medion MD2900 MD6179 laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../pa3382u-1brs.php Battery Fit Toshiba PA3382U-1BRS PA3384U-1BRS laptop battery,

  www.batteryfast.com/.../pa3421u-1brs.php Battery for Toshiba M30X M35X M40X PA3395U-1BRS PA3421U laptop battery,

Alienware Laptop M9700 wrote Alienware Laptop M9700
on Mon, Oct 13 2008 7:17 AM

Pingback from  Alienware Laptop M9700

joan wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Tue, Nov 11 2008 2:34 AM

http://www.battery-shop.org/  

 We offers new and rechargeable camcorder battery brands as Sony camcorder battery, JVC camcorder battery, Canon camcorder battery...

Digital camera battery for Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Kodak, Minolta, Sanyo, Olympus...

Cordless drill battery for all kinds of BOSCH Cordless drill battery, DEWALT Cordless drill battery....

Alienware m9700 on Digital Trends wrote Alienware m9700 on Digital Trends
on Fri, Jan 9 2009 7:20 AM

Pingback from  Alienware m9700 on Digital Trends

Antenna wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Sat, Feb 7 2009 6:26 PM

You certainly do have a way with technical computer terms. I was looking for some information but this is way  over my head. I'll have to ask some more questions.

laptop battery wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Tue, Feb 17 2009 8:55 PM

If you want to know how to use laptop battery well, You can see it from       www.adapterlist.com/.../presario-1800.htm compaq presario 1800 battery,it's very useful .

annyhaiyan wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Wed, Feb 18 2009 3:47 AM

I think the good  www.shopgogo.ca/.../hstnn-db17.htm hp hstnn-db17 battery ,and affordable prices

annyhaiyan wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Wed, Feb 18 2009 3:48 AM

I think the good www.shopgogo.ca/.../hstnn-db17.htm hp hstnn-db17 battery , and affordable prices

hdtv antenna wrote re: Ditto on Ayende's Microsoft OSS Post
on Mon, Feb 23 2009 9:48 PM

There always seems to be a problem with Microsoft. Microsoft = Holes.

.NET lover 007 wrote .NET开源社区存在的问题
on Wed, Mar 18 2009 3:47 AM

Add a Comment

(required)  
(optional)
(required)  
Remember Me?