My preference is always to go Web. I just don't find the UX story to be compelling enough to use WPF unless you're doing something very graphically intensive.

Based on your 4 pros for WPF versus 9 pro's for HTML/JQuery, I think you don't need convincing, but maybe your team does? Probably you have one or two "I hate Javascript" types on your team.

It looks to me like you have talked yourself into the html/jquery model and are looking to overcome something else in order to convince yourself. If you look at the lists, there are many more knowns in the the jScript section.

What else is going on that is leading you to doubt your decision?

If you were to build it with Html/JS, would you be interested in someone else building the WPF version? No commitments here...but it might be interesting to use as a *serious* Caliburn sample...

Well, if WPF leaves that after-taste in your mouth I suppose you already decided. I basically never touch routed events since I usually introduce a couple of classes that allow me to hook command-classes to the Command-Architecture and restrict myself to testing on a ViewModel level. Based on attached properties you would also be able to introduce behaviors like draggable and once having it in place apply it similarly to what should be possible with javascript. XAML and Binding Expressions require some getting used to but from my perspective are beyond anything that has been previously available. With things like Data Templates, and mechanisms to DRY away GUI look & feel mechanics, I think WPF allows for some pretty decent GUI setups.

What?? you're dumping C# for javascript?? that's a no brainer of course C#?

I no that javascript is being rediscovered and all that but it's in no way close to C# and will never be. period.

Hey Jeremy,

As one of your users (of StoryTeller) I would strongly advocate for the HTML/jQuery route. I find the WPF runner very clunky, but I've always just put that down to the fact that it's an "Alpha" which is fine, but then I agree with just how much work it's going to take to get it to run as smoothly as the jQuery solution.

The web has YEARS of blood, sweat and tears poured into it, and so is a perfect platform for the tool really, whereas WPF is like trying to drive a garbage truck around the F1 circuit and still hoping for poll position. The tooling is years behind...literally! And it means that I have to look forward to reading tons of frustrated tweets coming from you :-)

Personally I hope you go the HTML route - and if you're looking for some help on that front, I'd be keen to roll up the sleeves.

cheers,

Rob G

I'm definitely not making any commitments. I have enough to do ;) I was just curious.

Another pro of the WPF is it's a good way to sell the patterns in your upcoming book.

I personally would prefer the WPF way because I'm trying to figure that out myself and it would be a good benefit to the community for someone in the open source community to show good application design with WPF.

From your post, it sounds like this was a first time WPF app attempt?  It also sounds like the code is pretty tangled together - so separation of concerns, so it's not just a matter of polishing the view and extending (if needed the model).  However "to learn WPF" is not a valid pro for a product - users do not care about the framework in the apps.

WPF itself is really great, but its botched with the default controls and stock implementations.  jQuery has a much better set of controls though plugins, and the controls are easier to use.  XAML doesn't need to be bloated, however there isn't great documentation on XAML that shows the "easy way" and too much out there showing the "hard way".  (I work in both WPF and jQuery often).

Technology aside, it sounds like the real question is are your customers better served with a web based solution, or a desktop solution.  That should be the deciding factor over frameworks.

Jeremy, you might like Grails - combine that with jQuery and you have  a great setup!  :)

Have you considered Silverlight ?

I would love to see your implementation of HTML / JavaScript in a desktop application.

I would recommend you to take the WPF-approach and use the project as a personal learning tool. Or you could skip the WPF and use Silverlight. It feels that you've somewhat mastered the jQuery so maybe this could be a way to get new challenges into your programmer-life? :)

5),6).

IronPython, IronRuby?

Hi Jeremy,

I guess I would vote for the WPF way. I would love to see the StoryTeller WPF UI stay around and evolve into something more usable.

Don't get me wrong. I do understand your reasoning behind wanting to switch to a HTML /JS based UI . However I would like to add one more (maybe not directly related) point to the discussion.

StoryTeller (in its current state) is imho already very beneficial for the .net community. Not as the acceptance-test-killer-app, but as the BEST RESOURCE I know that shows how a desktop app CAN look like when it's build with topics like SOLID, IoC & testabililty in mind.

There're a lot of good resources out there for web-based architectures in .NET but only very few resources of comparable quality for dektop or smart client apps.

That beeing said, I think it would be a pity to loose a WPF StoryTeller (Maybe I'm kind of egoistic here, I don't now).

Just my 2 Cent. cheers,

Björn

As a user, I'm always put off by an application when I get something that's supposed to run on my desktop, and it turns out to be a browser-based app. I am sure that you can create something that is far more robust than the majority of web developers out there, but still...

In 2009 I would expect a locally executing application to be a WPF app.

I never really understood why you dislike WPF so much, but now that you list all of the things you might consider digging into (data templating and styling) I can begin to understand why you have yet to find it attractive - the best is yet to come :)

I don't even find XAML to be particularly verbose - sure it has closing tags with redudant text in it because it's XML, but apart from that you only need to specify what you care about.

In case you are in doubt, I vote for WPF :)

If StoryTeller is supposed to be a frequently used tool that people will spend a fair amount of time doing complex interaction with then I don't think you have a choice - you'd have to pick WPF. There isn't a single browser based application that I have used that doesn't get frustrating very quickly when used heavily [think context menus, interaction with OS (print/drag'n'drop/taskbar), keyboard shortcuts, terrible state management, poor client side caching, exception management, SLOW]. That includes browser based mail clients and RSS readers - the UX is always greatly inferior to a well written dedicated desktop client. I'd argue even StackOverflow would be better if they had a downloadable client (in WPF!).

Given that you're even considering HTML/JS for this I'm guessing you have a differnt opinion on this - or maybe you're just looking for the easy cop-out :-)

@Nigel Spencer: Thanks for putting in words all the things I was also thinking about, but couldn't crystallize into words!

To repeat your words a bit differently, basically you have to choose between something you know well and which does the work reasonably quickly and love (web), against something you don't know despise a little and has a big learning curve (wpf).

What would you choose?

Now, I will concede that WPF has a big learning curve, heck many WinForm desktop developer are still not getting their head around it after 4 years!

But take a book and 3 weeks to learn, and I can assure, you'll never look back!

And it will be all easier quicker and more potent!

WPF offers up new paradigms that are unique and innovative in the UX space.  Whether it actually sticks or not is another story.  And it may well be too much for the 9-5 corporate developer.  But, as you are an authority you REALLY need to dig in and understand the shift in thinking.  All in all its a powerful model that JavaScript thing just pales next to.

If I where you, I would see this as a great opportunity to learn more about WPF. But if you want this feature quickly in StorryTeller I would say go for the Javascript version for now and try use the WPF version later... (But I would choose for WPF anyway, since it would be great to learn and I am more a Desktop guy ;))

Thank you for submitting this cool story - Trackback from PimpThisBlog.com

One more vote for HTML/JavaScript here.  I'd add that with HTML/JavaScript there's a high likelihood that StoryTeller could be ported to other platforms (via Mono).   As I understand it, the WPF framework is so big that nobody is looking to port it currently.

Looks like your majority leans slightly with you, towards JS. jQuery in particular is fantastic and has a lot going for it, but I think you'll later kick yourself for breaking your application into two paradigms. The biggest problem with WPF apps to date is that few fluid, dynamic WPF apps can be found, so you'll be stuck making it up. I think you of all people would be capable of making that work, but it certainly won't be the easy way out. I think your decision really hinges on the question of time: do you want a new release with the new piece now or (potentially much) later?

What requirements does going the web route place on users of the tool vs the WPF route?  I liked how quick and easily it was to get the WPF version working.  And deployment is super easy as well.  

The 'ol Web\Win.  It's interesting that 10 yars down the road, we still have to choose.

An interesting question (to me anyway) is how can we structure our code to allow for both?  Or more... if we include iPhone/Android/WMobile platforms.  

It's seems that it's no longer a fair question of whether to deliver an entire app via. one platform.  Rather, which features lend themselves to which platform.

Obviously not in the scope of your project :-), but I for one think it would be pretty cool to see an elegant solution to that problem.

Vote 1 silverlight

One of the things I want to build into StoryTeller is the ability to plug different UIs in for different scenarios. The "generic" UI is fine in certain circumstances, but an easy way to swap in multiple UIs is so much more powerful and a better UX for less technical people.

With that being said, why not have the html hosted window be just another one of the UI choices? That way you don't have to commit one way or another and I can keep my dream of pluggable, rich UX. ;)

I would put up a vote for Silverlight over WPF or any javascript / jquery based solution.  Admittedly, I am very biased against anything javascript / html based.  Silverlight gives you 99% of the advantages of both technologies with few of the disadvantages.

I would also put a vote over Silverlite or Flash. I made a simple RIA app just in 2 days and it worked well for my CCTV lens  calculator  at http://www.jvsg.com/online/

I would go for silverlight or Flash. Personally I used flash in my http://www.jvsg.com/online/ online lens calculator.

In November I made a post about rewriting the StoryTeller test editor (because the current one is an