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Karl Seguin » Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
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Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
So there's a discussion going around about bundling a form of VS.NET (likely some Express Edition) with Vista. It started here, and got a response by Dan Fernandez of Microsoft here, with a number of trackbacks everywhere.

One of the arguments given is that it'll help Microsoft grow the next generation of coders:
"Part of the appeal of Linux is that you can easily develop and modify stuff. Why not keep the next generation of creative developers by providing them with that opportunity on Windows?"

To the best of knowledge, Microsoft doesn't have a problem creating new, or retaining existing developers - it's the most developed platform out there, way ahead of linux. So why try to solve a non-existent problem?

My real problem with all of this is that it goes against what a number of us have been saying here at codebetter.com : PROGRAMMING IS TOO EASY. Some people out there actually want a shortcut on my mom's computer so she can write her own "window manager or even file system". Whatever world some people are living in, I'm jealous. There are too many people out there writing crappy software, way too many writing way too crappy stuff. It's a n honest to god plague that'll eventually boil over and cause some major issues (liabilities).

If you have a child, or know of one, that you think would like to learn to program, check out the Kid's Programming Language (KPL). I've used it and like it very much - problem solved!


Posted Fri, Aug 11 2006 7:49 AM by karl
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Comments

Jon Schwartz wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Fri, Aug 11 2006 11:28 AM
/wave Karl.  One of the KPL guys here, wanted to say thanks for blogging.  Have you checked out the early announcement and demos of Phrogram yet?  KPL has a big brother, starting in the Ohio State Computer Science program next month.  :)  www.phrogram.com
johnwood wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Fri, Aug 11 2006 12:26 PM
I don't think it's right to discourage people from programming. Everybody has to start somewhere. Their code may start out crappy, but in most cases it only improves over time. I started out writing crappy software, and I'm sure you did too. And I'm sure you're better off for it. It sounds like what you're saying is that they need to get a BS in Computer Science before they'd be allowed to open up VS. Sounds crazy. csc.exe comes free with the OS. If it wasn't for the legal issues, I don't see any reason to extend this to include an IDE as well.
Greg wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Fri, Aug 11 2006 12:28 PM
I wrote a turtle implementation if anyone wants it :)
johnwood wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Fri, Aug 11 2006 12:58 PM
Cool, does it compile to IL? :)
karl wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Fri, Aug 11 2006 1:15 PM
John:
I don't have a BS in computer science :) And I did write crappy software not that long ago (.NET was a huge learning curve for a lot of us). I'm much more of a fan of a apprentice/mentorship relationship that you find in other professions.  

You need to use the right tool for the right job, and .NET and VS.NET aren't at all the right tools for introducing kids to programmnig. If you wanted to bundle KPL or some other language/tool (LOGO!!), go for it. No amount of "walkthroughs, example projects, wizards and web-based community resources" are going to turn C#/VB.NET/.NET into a good learning tool - even VS.NET is pretty complicated when you think about it.
johnwood wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Fri, Aug 11 2006 1:38 PM
Well I agree that general purpose languages are not a good starting place for programmers. They're barely a good platform for many professional developers either IMO. Something more domain specific like Logo would make more sense, be easier for them to get into and offer more feedback as they're developing. Perhaps you're right - shipping something like KPL or Logo alongside Solitaire and Minesweeper, from the perspective of edutainment, would be a better solution.
Jon Schwartz wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Fri, Aug 11 2006 8:34 PM
Yep, Phrogram, compiles to IL.  We're not releasing this feature yet, but we've even debugged a Phrogram from VS.NET.   :D  A future release will support that better, as well as automated conversion of Phrograms to VB.NET or C#.  

We certainly agree with you, John, that VS.NET have grown so large and powerful it's not a good learning tool - thus the opportunity for Phrogram.  We think it's already the best possible learning tool for beginners to learn real computer programming - and also the best possible way for a beginner to learn enough to graduate to C# or VB in VS.NET.
Greg wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Sat, Aug 12 2006 2:42 PM
Jon .. It would seem to me that a great way to support conversions would be to compile to a codedom tree :)

You could then output IL and/or convert to any language.

Personally I think windows is crying for a hypercard implementation :)
John wrote re: Egads! DON'T Bundle VS.NET with VISTA!!
on Sun, Aug 13 2006 5:22 PM
I get the C# compiler free already and giving away VS puts a dent in the aftermarket for editors. I also side with Petzold that advanced tools often impede learning. let people work up to VS, and encourage alternatives in the marketplace. VS is sold at a high enough price that there's room for successful commercial alternatives. drop that price, eliminate those alternatives, and your platform suffers.
Jeroen’s weblog » Express in Vista redux wrote Jeroen’s weblog » Express in Vista redux
on Tue, Aug 15 2006 5:09 AM
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