The second part of Ward Bell & I’s conversation on ORM is up at the ALT.NET Podcast. In this part we dive right into the vote of no confidence document that kicked up so (much more than was justified) fuss and racket about a month ago.
We recorded it a couple weeks back, and I’ve spent a little time thinking about the EF VoNC. At this point I’d say that:
- After looking more at it, EF v1 is actually worse than I thought it was
- No, I don’t regret signing and helping to write the no confidence thing. I wish it had unfolded differently and I’m disappointed at the negativity around it, but I still think it was worth doing. I still don’t think the wording of the document was very inflammatory, but I guess the idea of openly criticizing a Microsoft product is still taboo for big areas of the .Net community. If nothing else, it’s actually sparked something of a real dialog between two or more camps of development that rarely communicate with each other
- What I’ve heard from EF v2 (Mr. Bellware goes to Redmond, Washington) sounds pretty good. The EF team might have already been on the cleaner POCO path anyway. I really wish they’d been a bit more transparent and upfront about that. From all appearances, it’s always looked like the EF team was completely blowing off our original concerns about the usability of EF. Anyway, here’s to hoping the EF team’s new openness and transparency leads to a better relationship from now on.
- I think EF v2 sounds like it might be usable from my perspective, so would I recommend using EF v1 if you want all that EDM stuff and migrate to the POCO model in v2 later? I’m going to make the sure to be controversial standpoint that it’ll be easier to start with NHibernate now and migrate to EF v2 later than it would be to start with EF v1.
- Regardless of what they do, I think the EF is unlikely to completely succeed. The EF is getting yanked into way too many directions to make everybody happy. Look at their fancy advisory council. Some DDD guys, an Agile guru, a database weenie who wants to write all his code in T-SQL sprocs like it’s 1995, and an MDA guy. How could one single tool make all of those different people happy without collapsing under its own complexity? Oh, and tou think ALT.NET whines about the EF? On a couple different occasions I’ve watched data centric guys yell at the EF team for perceived shortcomings in stored procedure support. I couldn’t tell you the specifics of their complaints though, because I snoozed off as soon as I heard the words “stored procedure.”
- ALT.NET gets a rap for bad behavior, but in the wake of the VoNC document, I thought the traditionalists (the TechEd/INETA/Regional Director types) behaved poorly as well. The kicker for me was Stephen Forte’s crack that developers want ORM’s because they’re too stupid and lazy to learn set-based algebra, then says that he hopes “cooler heads” will prevail later in the exact same post. Um, rank hypocrisy anyone?